Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

WikiProject Football (Rated Project-class)
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Olympic footballers[]

Hi. As part of my ongoing work to create biographies on Olympians, I've now created a stub for all the missing footballers. If you're intrested, you can find the full list here. I went the squad lists for each Olympics (example), and completed the red links for those with biographies on Sports Reference. The caveat is that I've not gone through every single existing blue link to ensure it's the right person, but if you spot anyone who is missing, I'm more than happy to create a stub for them (drop a note on my talkpage). Likewise, if I've created a stub and the subject already exists (different spelling, etc), then I've no problem if you want to merge/redirect to the earlier article. Or, if you prefer, drop me a note and I'll do the work on that too.

Now football is my least favourite sport (please put your pitchforks down), and as a result, I know next to nothing about individuals and teams. So any questions about confusion between two players are probably best left to this talkpage, and not mine! And lastly, thanks to @GiantSnowman: for some early guidance. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:17, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was I under the impression that for men's football, playing at the Olympics didn't grant notability to players as it's not classed as senior international matches as the squads are largely U23 players (unlike women's Olympic football, which is full age teams). This is certainly how I recall things going at AfD when this has come up. Number 57 20:58, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
They pass both WP:NFOOTY and WP:NOLYMPICS. Specifically NFOOTY says
Players who have played in, and managers who have managed in any Tier 1 International Match, as defined by FIFA, in a competitive senior international match at confederation level regardless of whether or not the teams are members of FIFA, or the Olympic Games. Spike 'em (talk) 21:28, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
From 1992 on, Olympic men's football matches haven't counted as full internationals due to the age limits. Hack (talk) 05:41, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
There is no doubt they pass WP:OLYMPICS, and I'd read WP:NFOOTY to read as:

Players who have played in, and managers who have managed in:

  • any Tier 1 International Match, as defined by FIFA,
  • a competitive senior international match at confederation level regardless of whether or not the teams are members of FIFA, or
  • the Olympic Games.
Jack N. Stock (talk) 05:52, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
In order to came out from the grey area, better pass both WP:NFOOTY and WP:GNG. As i remember some US Olympics footballer, as they were playing college soccer at that time, were consider not passing NFOOTY (or GNG all together). Matthew hk (talk) 06:16, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the question, Number 57. Per the replies above, they all pass WP:NOLY. I know you have different criteria for N:FOOTY, but I think they pass that as well. If it helps, many of the biographies I created had multiple links to other langauge wiki articles, and the ones I looked at, had a wealth of information in their respective languages. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 08:16, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
It's been long-established that competing at the Olympics - as footballer or other - grants notability. GiantSnowman 09:11, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
May be i messed my memory of early 2010s arguments then. Matthew hk (talk) 16:25, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
I'd agree you could fail WP:NFOOTY but still pass WP:NOLY. SportingFlyer talk 09:12, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
And to be clear, NFOOTY does not apply to Olympic qualifying, correct? (e.g. Football at the 1976 Summer Olympics – Men's qualification) S.A. Julio (talk) 10:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Big Jock Knew[]

I am wondering whether the above article is now more about the scandal than it is about the song. If it is, and the addition of material that Big Jock cannot possibly have known about as it is too recent may suggest so, should the title be changed to reflect this? Britmax (talk) 18:36, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I added it, so not sure why not address me or at least tag me in the discussion? I was uncertain which article to add the info to (person bio or song), in the end went for both at present although fully welcome such discussions. I would say that although relating to later incidents, its valid to add IMO as the debate on whether torbett should have been allowed around children related back (in the sources, not to synthed by me) to the original incidents when stein or others may or may not have been aware and may or may not have booted him out. And this is the theme of the song. Crowsus (talk) 19:07, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
I was seeking a general opinion of which way the article might be going. You make an interesting case regarding the incidents having happened while he was around, lets see what other opinions are. Capital letter for surnames, by the way. Britmax (talk) 16:33, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Hole (association football)[]

Currently Hole (association football) is a redirect to Playmaker. There is, however, no mention of 'hole' that I can see at Playmaker. Is there a more sensible place for that redirect to point to? Or, should some mention of 'hole' be added to Playmaker? Or or, should the page have content in its own right, rather than redirecting elsewhere? I honestly have no idea, as I know very little about football. Cnilep (talk) 03:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Here's the last pre-redirect article: [1] I don't think playmaker is the best choice, to be honest. Might be better off deleted. SportingFlyer talk 04:03, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Playmaker could be suitable choice with a simple adddition in the advanced playmaker section, e.g. "advanced playmakers are sometimes described as playing in "the hole" because they occupy a position between midfield and the strickers. This could go before or after the mention of the number 10. Although you have to ask who would be searching using "hole" (a search for "the hole" might be more reasonable) and the more common "number 10" doesn't have a redirect. On the whole, such redirects open a whole can of worms. What about trequartistas or fantasisti, which get a mention in Association_football_positions#Attacking_midfield and Midfielder#Attacking_midfielder (redirect target of trequartistas), possible alternatives for the redirect with appropriate addition to cover the hole term. A delete might be simpler.   Jts1882 | talk  08:13, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
The hole (football) and The hole (soccer) currently redirect to Forward (association football). Hole (association football), Hole (football), and Hole (soccer) each redirect to Playmaker. The Glossary of association football terms as well as several player biographies link to Hole (association football), and some player bios link to The hole (football). Cnilep (talk) 02:26, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

East, West and Germany National Team[]

Would someone like to join the discussion about the appropriate lineage of the East Germany Mens National Team and West Germany Mens National Team history in relation to the Germany Mens National Team on Talk:Germany national football team? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:13, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

FIFA consider Germany the successor to the West Germany team. Just like they consider Russia as the successor of the Soviet Union and Serbia the successor of Yugoslavia. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:31, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

[]

Hi everyone. In the page A.S. Roma there is the old logo (used between 2013 and 2017) and not the new one: could anyone upload the 2017 logo?--Luca•M 09:14, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

I uploaded it by myself, could anyone see if the upload is ok?--Luca•M 20:33, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Barawa football team[]

Should this page be on Barawa national football team and the redirect the other way around or not? Govvy (talk) 12:04, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Looks better this way round to me. The team can in no way be seen as representing anything approaching a separate nation or region. See related RM here.Spike 'em (talk) 12:34, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
, K, fair enough, Govvy (talk) 13:09, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Roger Hoy[]

Is anyone able to find any other obituary for Roger Hoy besides the Spurs one? Govvy (talk) 12:23, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

This guy? [2] SportingFlyer talk 12:42, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
@SportingFlyer: That URL doesn't work, are you sure you copied it right? Govvy (talk) 13:09, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
The source is behind a paywall and also blacklisted on wikipedia. Crystal Palace also have a brief statement like Spurs.   Jts1882 | talk  13:21, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Not an obit, but some information on his condition can be found at the Tottenham Tribute Trust. Another footballer dying too young with dementia.   Jts1882 | talk  13:31, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Jts1882, I used those links as citations. Hope that helps the article, not sure I can do much more for it at the moment. Govvy (talk) 13:52, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Didn't realise it was blacklisted and only hit the paywall - was just putting it up as a possible alternative. Glad it's sorted! SportingFlyer talk 23:59, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Partial ban on "YYYY-YY" article titles (eg 2008–09 Premier League)[]

There is a proposal to change Wikipedia's Manual of Style to bar the use of YYYY-YY in articles and titles if ending in -01, -02 etc up to -12 ("unless in close proximity to other ranges in this format that end with numbers outside the 01–12 range"), as "anything ending in "-01" through "-12" ... is routinely misread as YYYY-MM."
Titles such as "2008–09 Premier League" would not be permitted ("2008–2009 Premier League" would be required) but "2018–19 Premier League" would still be allowed. The discussion is at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Clarifying date ranges in YYYY–YY format. 92.19.28.168 (talk) 16:22, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Simon Hooper referee[]

I see that there is currently no article on Simon Hooper who is now a Select Group referee. It appears that there was an article, but this was deleted on 11 October 2018. Can this article be reinstated? Thanks. Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 08:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

@Daemonickangaroo2018: The article deleted on 11 October 2018 was not about the referee, it was about a completely different person (a "social media influencer", whatever the hell that is), so if we were to have an article about the ref it would need to be started from scratch.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:33, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
@ChrisTheDude: - how do you know who the previous article was about? I've seen other red-link pages that say it was deleted, but it would be good to know if the deleted person was the same person or not. eg. Ralph Ferron - a Luxembourg international footballer with 26 caps, or the "master of Buckhounds for George II". --Philk84 Talk Contributions 11:01, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
@Philk84: - I'm an admin, so I can see deleted articles. I can confirm that the article on Ralph Ferron deleted in early 2007 was indeed about the footballer..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:04, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

James H. Logan[]

On making some s regarding Raith Rovers players in the McCrae's Battalion article, I noticed that the listing of James Logan linked to the wrong player. The player in question is team captain James H. Logan (the "H" being given as Henry in some references to him), not, apparently, the same individual as Jimmy Logan (footballer) (James Merrilees Logan) or James Logan (defender, born 1885) (James Lochhead Logan, who coincidentally later managed RRFC). Logan is the only one of the Rovers players not to have a linked article, particularly puzzling as he was the captain and the only info I can find regarding him is of him simply in various lists of his comrades. I'm not particularly au fait with using football resources and wondered if anyone here could unearth material with which to create an article. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I've just noticed that the info that James Lochhead Logan was the post-war manager is not cited so this may in fact be a misattribution of our man James H's later career. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:49, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
And perhaps James Logan (forward, born 1885) is part of the picture. The article appears to only cover part of his career and no middle initial is given. Seems like a bit of straightening out between the 3 or 4 individuals is required... Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes most of the career of James Logan (forward, born 1885) (he only played as a CF for Bradford City, most of his career he was CH, RH or LH) is missing 1906-1909 Chesterfield, 1909-1912 Bradford PA, Raith Rovers 1912-1916. James Henry Logan born 17-10-1885 (I'm not sure where, sources don't agree) had two spells as a Raith Rovers manager. He also managed Wrexham (January 1937 - May 1938). Outside football he sold candy, tobacco and managed a hotel. He rose to the rank of captain during WW I. Cattivi (talk) 22:58, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
So the attribution of the manager's post to James Logan (defender, born 1885) is incorrect and it should be to James Logan (forward, born 1885), the latter being the James H. Logan we are looking for? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:22, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes, and the link in [[3]] is wrong as well. Cattivi (talk) 23:58, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
As you have the sources for this, would you be able to address it please? Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:30, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
@Cattivi: If you don't have the time to do it yourself, I can update him from Joyce, Stuart Basson's Chesterfield site and newspaper sources. The only thing mentioned above that I couldn't source are his selling sweets and tobacco. Also, do you have a convincing source for when he was a St Bernard's player? Joyce, ENFA (the free-to-access bit) and presumably the Bradford City book say he was one, but newspapers both English and Scottish have Bradford City signing him from Edinburgh Myrtle straight after the Junior international at the beginning of April 1905, in which he played CF. So when could he have been at St Bernard's, a senior club? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:17, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
An article in the Dundee Evening Telegraph 9 February 1932 page 8 mentions his candy shops in Kirkcaldy and five years as a hotel proprietor in Kirriemuir (between his two spells as Raith Rovers manager). Not sure about St Bernards, you can find it in Emms-Wells Scottish league players' records as well. I also found him the 1939 register living in Amersham, still in the candy business, also selling tobacco and owning a restaurant. (yes this is a primary source) Cattivi (talk) 11:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
That's great @Struway2:; did you find evidence linking him to Raith Rovers as player, captain and/or manager? Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Player and both spells as manager, yes. Captain no, but you said above that some James Logan was the captain, so I assumed you had a source for that? The other thing I can't do is his Raith playing stats, keep thinking about buying a suitable source for early Scottish players but never actually do it. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
I have an additional source, Litster's Record of Pre-War Scottish League Players. He has James Henry Logan (17 October 1885, Dunbar - 7 June 1961, Edinburgh) as having played for St Bernards, Bradford City, Chesterfield, Bradford PA and Raith Rovers, followed by management stints with Raith Rovers and Wrexham. Jimmy Logan's career is as on his wiki page. James Logan (defender, born 1885) is Queen's Park, Aston Villa, Rangers and St Mirren, plus his international stats, no management career. Beatpoet (talk) 11:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Captain was his final rank in the army. You can use the Dundee Evening Telegraph article for this as well. Cattivi (talk) 11:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

These might also help, A is a book by David Ross that details James H Logans career including Raith player, soldier, Raith manager and Wrexham manager; B is a similar discussion to this one 5 years ago on the Scottish League forum. That also mentions a possible confusion with another J Logan who signed for Bradford City from St Bernard's at the same time as James H, although it may be the same player and just a spell at St Bernard's between Myrtle and Bradford? This source C, a self published effort, states that a James Logan at Bradford was the brother of Peter Logan who won the cup with them, but haven't seen those linked in other sources when you'd think it would be a good bit of trivia: war hero brother of cup winner, maybe a Bradford expert could confirm if their club signed two J Logans that year or not, if not it probably is all the same player, he seemed to play a few positions. There's also this daft thing here D and a photo with the other Raith mccraes players here E. I would definitely be moving manager stuff from the Rangers player to the Bradford player ASAP. Crowsus (talk) 12:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm not the only one that was bothered by the Myrtle/St Bernards inconsistency, then... But all sources follow James H Logan consistently through from Bradford City via Chesterfield to Raith Rovers player soldier and manager, which is what we were looking for proof of. And the Dundee Telegraph article reckon he's the same chap who played in the Junior internationals, so who are we to worry? There are contemporary newspaper sources for Peter Logan being a brother of James Logan of Chesterfield ex Bradford. thanks, Struway2 (talk) 13:51, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
That's good news then, could you please add that ref to the expansion of his bio at some point, then it could also be added to that of Peter (along with the blog ref which I thinking would be fair enough to include as long as other sources back up the main fact of them being related?) Crowsus (talk) 16:11, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Have done (to both articles). Feel free to re-add the blog. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks everyone. The source that our James Logan was team captain is this article in the online version of the Kirkcaldy newspaper; sorry for any confusion@Struway2:, I wasn't looking for evidence that he had been captain, just that the JL we were homing in on was confirmed as the one who had been captain, from the choice of JLs on offer. I think I saw his captaincy mentioned elsewhere too; I'll try to dig it out. @Cattivi:, I've only had a brief search for the Telegraph(/Tully) archives with no joy so far but I'll try again later. Does it require subscription? Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I've started expanding James Logan (forward, born 1885) from the sources supplied by everyone here and have tagged it as {{under construction}}. Mainly as an excuse for leaving unsourced stuff in temporarily. Please feel free to join in. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

The James Logan who played for Bradford City - from the Frost book - LOGAN JH (CF) born Dunbar 1885 joined from St Bernards in April 1905, left to join Chesterfield in August 1906 (all page 401); he is James H Logan with 5 league apps (1 goal) in 1905–06 season, no cup appearances (all page 385). GiantSnowman 12:56, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I think the reference in the Fife Free Press here to Logan being team captain may well be doubtful, quite possibly confusion with his army rank and particularly as it is not repeated in this article, already mentioned above, of only two days later.

A bit of a tangent but a related one: it dawned on me that the James W.M. Gourlay noted to be standing on the right of the photograph in these newspaper articles and in the same shot in the war memorial at Starks Park, (in Commons here:[4]) is in a distinctly different uniform and is not noted in the newspaper articles as being among the seven Raith players who joined McCrae's battalion, all of whom are listed in the corresponding wikipedia article on the unit. Gourlay's uniform and cap badge appear to be that of the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, which would seem to match him with this Imperial War Museum listing. The photograph in the latter article apparently shows him wearing a football jersey. Was he another Raith player, hence his inclusion in the photograph or is that inclusion an aberrration or have another significance? With the great work you've all done regarding Logan, I'm hopeful somebody can turn up the answer. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:15, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

A bit more digging has produced this, this and this which might give some leads. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:26, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
I’ve been doing a bit of word of mouth research and it seems that James/Jimmy Gourlay was a well-known figure but so far I have only found a couple of references to him in reliable sources. He is not either of the footballing James Gourlays with existing articles; they are far too early. This Jimmy Gourlay did indeed play for Raith Rovers and was later the club’s chairman. Outside of football he was a primary teacher and was head of Auchtertool School in the 1920s, also, later I believe, head of St. Monans School, then head of the North School in Kirkcaldy, retiring in the late 50s, probably 1958. He was also provost of St Monans and provost of Kirkcaldy. Hopefully some useful material about him exists that could establish an article. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Naming[]

Now that we have a month of birth for James H. Logan, I'd suggest renaming James Logan (forward, born 1885) and James Logan (defender, born 1885) to use birth month rather than playing position to disambiguate. Neither man played predominantly in the chosen playing position used: both played mainly in the half back line. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. GiantSnowman 13:36, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
But according to the page text, the defender was born in 1884, so shouldn't it be (footballer, born 188x) as appropriate? Spike 'em (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Even better. GiantSnowman 14:26, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, and well spotted. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:29, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Though the DoB was only changed recently, and the 2 web-based sources differ (AV have DoB 1885, and QP 1884). Do any of the book sources provide any information on this?Spike 'em (talk) 14:47, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
I've been looking online for half an hour for anything more conclusive online with no joy. I did find this, a discussion on whether James L., Tommy Logan and Alec/x Logan (no article as yet, might sound do myself, there is enough for me a stub at least) were brothers (yes), but I know I can really use that as a source although some of it is appears to extensively quote bio details from a book including the fact of Alex and Tommy being related. The only thing I really have separately is this Villa profile for Alec which says James is his brother, and a profile for James vice versa. There is also this, a commonwealth graves profile for James Lochhead Logan who died aged 24 in 1947, son of a man with the same name resident in Birmingham. That would tie in with James Snr's link to the Villa earlier in life and would make the 1958 Worcester date seem more plausible, though no more so than returning to his hometown and dying a few months after his son. But I'm very much surmising and supposing a lot of that. Hoping someone with access to papers or other archives can find some thing definite on his life and hopefully something on the siblings, that forum thread definitely indicated there was something to go on, though it didn't confirm where that info came from. Crowsus (talk) 17:16, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
It's stuff like this that convinces me that people who claim to have drawn up their family tree accurately for umpteen generations might well be deluding themselves...
  1. The 1911 Census transcription lists James Lochhead Logan as a 26-year-old professional footballer living in Sutton Coldfield. If correctly reported, recorded and transcribed, that age is compatible with a late 1884 birthdate but not with August 1885. His wife was named as Agnes Muir Logan, so the JL Logan who died aged 24 in 1947 is definitely the son of JL Logan the footballer.
  2. FreeBMD lists the death of Agnes M Logan in Oldbury, Worcestershire, aged 68, in 1954.
  3. The Probate Calendar confirms this was Agnes Muir Logan and that probate was granted to her husband, one James Lochhead Logan, publican. So in 1954, JL Logan would appear to be alive.
  4. Speculation section: The only likely candidate I can find after that date is also on the Probate Calendar, a James Lockhead Logan resident of a nursing home in Worcester, death date 25 September 1968 (listed under 1974 probates, one wonders why it took five years to settle). But I couldn't find him on Findmypast or FreeBMD, so no DoB/age at death. That might imply he didn't die at home in England. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
You can find him on Scotlandspeople.gov.uk He was 84 years old. His death was registered in Johnstone in Renfrewshire. Cattivi (talk) 10:43, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
So you can... when I had a Scotlandspeople account years ago, I'm sure you couldn't even search without crs, so I never bothered trying. Hey ho. Shows him born in 1884 in Barrhead and Levern district, as well... thanks, Struway2 (talk) 12:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
It looks like way to deep in conducting own WP:original research on interpreting the raw data. Matthew hk (talk) 13:40, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Respectfully @Matthew hk: you do that all the time with financial records of Italian clubs...pot kettle black? GiantSnowman 13:52, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
@GiantSnowman: direct c&p the profit value is fine, as well as paraphrase the wording in secondary source. But looking at his wife and deduce the identity of his husband, should be the work of journalist. Matthew hk (talk) 13:56, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Don't think that where a pair of full and unusual names are consistently available together in sources, it takes any original research to declare them the same people. Both the 1911 census and the 1954 probate calendar list Agnes Muir Logan explicitly as the wife of the then living person James Lochhead Logan, and the ages given for Mrs Logan are consistent with each other. As, according to Cattivi somewhere up above, they also were on the 1939 Register. If the names were more common, or didn't follow together through the sources, I'd agree with you. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC) Sorry, strike reference to wrong bit of conversation. Struway2 (talk) 14:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Primary sources should be avoided as much as possible. But that doesn't mean you should copy everything secondary sources write. If primary sources don't agree at all with secondary sources, the least you should do in my opinion, is not mention the information from secondary sources. If you do use information from a primary source, it should be clear from an explanatory note. Combining news reports can go horribly wrong as well. I don't think everybody will agree that everything a newspaper writes is a secondary source, it can be a secondary source is probably more accurate. In August a large part of the career of Bill Julian was removed and with good reason. Although Bill Julian trained a lot of clubs in the Netherlands, in most cases it wasn't the former Arsenal captain, it was his son Joseph William Julian, best known as Bill Julian, who had no significant career as a footballer in England. ["SPORT IN ENGELAND". "Limburger koerier : provinciaal dagblad". Heerlen, 07-04-1934. Geraadpleegd op Delpher op 14-11-2018, https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010349611:mpeg21:a0255] This interview is pretty clear. Bill Julian went to an Arsenal game in 1934. 'My father as a former captain still gets free tickets' If you don't know there were two trainers with that name, it might look well referenced, but actually it isn't. Cattivi (talk) 17:23, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Featured quality source review RFC[]

Editors in this WikiProject may be interested in the featured quality source review RFC that has been ongoing. It would change the featured article candidate process (FAC) so that source reviews would need to occur prior to any other reviews for FAC. Your comments are appreciated. --IznoRepeat (talk) 21:32, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Categories of Hammam-Lif[]

There are Category:CS Hammam-Lif and Category:Club Sportif de Hammam-Lif that should be merged, I guess. --Superchilum(talk to me!) 08:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

@Superchilum:  Done GiantSnowman 19:20, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
@GiantSnowman: thank you very much! --Superchilum(talk to me!) 19:53, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Category naming[]

I'm actually renaming Category:Divisiones regionales de fútbol players, Category:Divisiones regionales de fútbol and Category:Divisiones Regionales navigational boxes to Category:Divisiones Regionales de Fútbol players, Category:Divisiones Regionales de Fútbol and Category:Divisiones Regionales de Fútbol navigational boxes, to match up with the article name (Divisiones Regionales de Fútbol). But somehow @BrownHairedGirl and @Timrollpickering think this approach is incorrect and are reverting me by saying that I "gathered no consensus", since the category were created by other users back in the day and were all "abandoned". Some templates belonging to Category:Divisiones Regionales de Fútbol navigational boxes (or Category:Divisiones Regionales navigational boxes - I don't know anymore, since BHG is reverting everything) were not updated since the 2012-13 season.

A great example is Template:Preferente de Madrid. She reverted all my s where I was updating the templates! Blind WP:HOUND I think it is.

Can you guys give some inputs on what you think it's the correct name of the cats, please? MYS77 18:57, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I have no view on the correct name. But if you want to rename the category, please nominate the category at WP:CFD, rather than moving it unilaterally. And especially, when two admins have reverted your out-of-process move, don't -war. That's a fast track to a WP:BLOCK. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:01, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Notice: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/FC Cincinnati (MLS)[]

Hey all, there's a discussion going on at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/FC Cincinnati (MLS) that is relevant to soccer in the U.S. at large, so I thought I'd post it here. Cheers, IagoQnsi (talk) 00:40, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Football records in England[]

I didn't know we had this article, but I think a few trolls, sock puppets have been ing the article so I am not sure what's fake, correct etc. Might need reviewing, Govvy (talk) 18:34, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Current international squad ordering[]

Hi all, I recently saw Danielmordor (talk · contribs) re-order the Luxembourg national football team (and other) current squad to be sorted by number of caps. I originally put it in following the order of the press release both by local press and the local FA - alphabetical - and this appears to be the standard across the various FAs and their press releases. Looking at the Manual of Style for national teams, I don't see anything noted about ordering criteria here, so I'm wondering if there is already a consensus for this, or if one needs to be decided? Cheers, --Philk84 Talk Contributions 15:56, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Ordered by position and then alphabetically. GiantSnowman 16:05, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Agreed, unless the squad is for a tournament for which squad numbers are assigned (i.e. the World Cup or a continental championship, not qualifiers), in which case they should be sorted by position and then squad number. – PeeJay 16:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, shouldn't it be position and then squad numbers? Kante4 (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
True, but Luxembourg (and other smaller countries) don't normally assign (or rather, announce) squad numbers in advance. So while I would agree that Squad Numbers should be used, in the cases where there aren't any the squad would then be ordered by name rather than number of caps, yes? Does four people count as enough of a consensus to revert these cap-sorting s? --Philk84 Talk Contributions 19:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Yep, name when no numbers available. Kante4 (talk) 19:41, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Disagree. Position, caps, goals, then alphabetically. --BlameRuiner (talk) 11:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Why? – PeeJay 11:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Would like a reason aswell. Kante4 (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

English footballers abroad[]

Does anyone think an article based on the history of British and Irish players abroad would be notable subject to write about ? Dwanyewest (talk) 11:23, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure. Is there a list of Brazilian expat footballers, but deleted? List of Brazilian footballers in Serie A is survived only because it will be too long to include in List of foreign Serie A players. Matthew hk (talk) 11:28, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Dwayne is proposing "an article based on the history". I think that would have far more encyclopedic value than a laundry list of names of players...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:39, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
If or can dig out secondary source that had in-depth coverage on the history, it certainly worth to do it and passing WP:GNG. But most often i read in the news was trivial coverage of listing name and concluded their career is not good abroad. Robbie Keane as i remember was one of the them in these news coverage, and may be Paul Ince as counter example in those news. (and may be David Beckham). However, since lack of a book sized material on this subject, it seem difficult to craft an article without listing matter by user decided criteria. Matthew hk (talk) 11:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
There are plenty of books on the subject, eg this one -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:57, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Then it is my fault on googling. Matthew hk (talk) 11:58, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I think it'd be interesting - focus on notable aspects of it, eg the notorious reluctance of the Br players to learn languages, until Lineker broke that mould, or settle into the culture, see Luther Blissett for his comments on Rice Crispies. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Then we seem talking about two kind of content of the article. On one side, A.C. Milan, Genoa C.F.C. were linked to English expats and sailors who spread the sports to the world, which would supported by the book cited by ChrisTheDude. And on another side, was the history about the cultural adaption of the expat footballers and their success / failure. If some journalist made nail comment/summary on adapting culture / tactics as an expat footballers (such as Italy), when such content could also survived in wikipedia. But comment on culture difference by individual players may or may not support a statement regarding all expat had to face this challenge. Or Spanish footballer or any expat footballer would face such language and culture challenge. Matthew hk (talk) 12:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

England national playing style[]

I have tried bringing this subject up multiple times without any responses. I wish to know for the men's national football team should there be a subsection of the teams national playing style. I feel that is notable as there are many third person sources criticising as one the reasons for its lack of success. Dwanyewest (talk) 11:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

You could do, but beware of generalising too much across eras. The Venables and Hoddle sides played very differently than under McClaren. And even within managerial eras: famously, the change to the sweeper system that worked so well under Robson, adopted during a World Cup. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
WP:SODOIT comes in here. If you feel you could create a suitible subsection, do it. Make sure it's well sourced... Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 14:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

"Football manager" or "football coach"?[]

I've noticed that the new Celta de Vigo manager, Miguel Cardoso, has his article named as Miguel Cardoso (football coach), while Ricardo Rodríguez (a former Girona manager), has his article named as Ricardo Rodríguez (football manager). Both naming conventions are correct or should we move one of them? MYS77 13:44, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

It should be 'manager'. GiantSnowman 13:57, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Yup. Kante4 (talk) 14:08, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Manager is right. Out of interest, for countries where "coach" is the preferred word (Notably the US), do we refer to them as coaches in these articles, or keep it uniform? Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 14:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Could we not move him to Miguel Cardoso, and move Miguel Cardoso to Miguel Cardoso (disambiguation)? Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 14:52, 16 November 2018 (UTC)